Dialog with an Atheist


“Tony” <tonykonrath@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Tony – Most of the posters who cannot accept the idea of a creation seem to be rather frightened people. They quote books – usually without having read them and in most cases inaccurately. None are scientists. They nearly all seem to scared of the idea of there being an afterlife.In other words they are wishful thinkers. Having found a mythology *atheism* to comfort their fears they are unable to shift their thinking despite almost overwhelming evidence to the contrary.To any young people looking through these posts I’d suggest talking to real scientists, reading books and thinking for yourselves.

As for “Evolutionary science” – ask yourselves where are the laboratories where they do this “science.” Imagination can ‘imposter’ as faith as well as deny the existance of God. And when you base things on imagination instead of faith then you’ve got blind faith which is not faith at all.
Atheist – I’m sorry, but references to the Bible mean nothing to me. I’ve read it, and see no reason to understand it as anything more than a cultural artifact.
Tony – Regardless that Jesus’ apostles studied from the same scroll version ofthe Bible that Jesus did, Jesus still had to open the minds of hisapostles to the Scriptures as Luke 24:44-45 shows. So regardless that the apostles were with Jesus during many events in Jesus’ missionary travels, the apostles still failed to understand that many events they witnessed were actually fulfilling OT prophecies concerning the firstcoming of the Messiah. Indeed, you’re in the trap that 1 Corinthians1:18-19 warns about. You are refusing to apply faith to the Bible’s faith-based teachings and are consequently spinning your wheels tryingto figure the Bible out.
God ‘programmed’ our psyches so that we would know who God is. But people like you have desensitized yourself to your built-in awareness ofGod.(Revelation 3:20)
You’re not being honest with yourself. With all the recent hoopla about”The Passion” I’m sure that you could tell me all about Jesus Christ and why he was crucified. The bottom line that you arbitrarily choose not to believe in Jesus. Your “referential value” is no more than institutional sounding white wash disguising the fact that you have indeed chosen to reject Jesus as Lord.
Athiests ignore that science doesn’t come close to explaining how our minds work.
Where did this assertion that christians ignore that science doesn’t explain how our minds work come from?
What we accomplish by acknowledging that we don’t know how the mind works is that evolution “science’ books attempting to explain the mind of modern man can now be moved from the science shelves back to the science fiction shelves where they belong.
Consider that lawyers have to negotiate with the judge as to what evidence they can present to the jury. Also consider that you have inadvertently appointed yourself as judge with respect to God’s existance and are simply determined to throw out of your court anything that can be construed as evidence of God.
Atheist – Your statement merely reflects undisciplined imagination
Tony – Undisicplined imagination? What the heck is that supposed to mean?
Undisciplined imagination means that you are defining reality as whatever tickles your fance. You are in no position to state this, unless you can state a reasoned explanation for defining reality based on your own interpretation of the God/Jesus matrix as vaguely posited in the Bible.
Tony – True christians have always said that their convictions are based onfaith. Ironically, faith is really what atheists/evolutionists areputting into the in exact science of evolution anyway.
However you do this at the cost of disregarding God’s reality which is the only reality.

Atheist – And how is the notion that “God’s reality … is the only reality” not just something that “tickles your fance [sic]”?
Tony – You’re asking me for things that you must get directly from Jesus’ Holy Spirit. Why don’t you establish a relationship with Jesus by invitingJesus’ Holy Spirit into your spiritutal heart (Revelation 3:20), and find these things out from his Holy Sprit?
Atheist – I could very well accuse you of having an undisciplined imagination for imagining your deity to be real. It is interesting that you tried to slant my remark about undisciplinedimagination as nonsensical and then make a reasonable assertion with respect to it.I was trying to get at what you meant by “undisciplined imagination,”and then used my understanding of that phrase to how how it applies toyour assertions about the God/Jesus matrix.
Tony – God endowed man with both faith and reasoning, probably wanting theseattributes to work together in harmony, faith being the part of our psyche that understands God.

But consider that the devil schrewlytricked Eve’s imagination, her imagination allowing Eve to pretend that she could be like God in certain ways. So Eve foolishly followed herimagination unwitting allowing her faith to take a knock-out punch ass he disobeyed God.
Atheist – Indeed, given your faith is “tied and gagged in the back of a closet,”your imagination can now run wild, allowing you to make a science out of things when there is really no science there, evolution theory being one example.
Tony – Regarding my deity as real consider that either your imagination or mine must be wrong.
Atheist – Sorry, false dichotomy, and Vishnu hates people who try to use false dichotomies as a form of argument.
Tony – Vishnu’s just a strawman. Either your perspective or mine MUST be wrong.
Atheist – However, Vishnu might forgive you for admitting that the God/Jesus matrix is just a part of your imagination, and that you might be wrong.
Sounds like a breakthrough.
Tony – Sounds like an undisciplined imagination to me.
Atheist – as opposed to a demonstration of faith.That’s part of my point. I’m an atheist. I have no religious faith.
Tony – You use your religious faith extensively as evidence by the fact that you are willing to put your faith in anything but God.
Atheist – You have no idea what I place faith in. Atheists are basically defined by what they *don’t* put faith in. And Vishnu *hates* presumptiousness.
Also, *what* god?
Tony – The God that atheists refuse to put their faith in.
I regard the ‘spiritual heart’ as a part of the human psyche just a sreasoning and emotions are parts of the human psyche. Indeed, I believethat we love people with our spirituals heart as opposed to our blood pumping hearts.
Regarding evidence of God, I believe that you’ve asked me the question before. But when I did mention some scan evidence you changed the aspect of evidence from qualitative to quantitative, disregarding the scan evidence as not being good enough. (Funny, the Pharisees had alsoupped the bar for the evidence that they demanded from Jesus. Jesus then taught that no amount of evidence will persuade anybody who don’twant to put their faith in Jesus in the first place.)
Tony – What is this “probably” stuff? You’re just showing that you are unsure of yourself. I think that you are uncomfortable with the issue. Given that you are uncomfortable with the issue you are probably trying to sidestep the possibility that we were created by a Supreme Being, a Supreme Being who endowed man with the ability to discern right fromwrong as that Supreme Being defines right and wrong.
Your statement merely reflects undisciplined imagination as opposed to ademonstration of faith
Tony – Why do you disregard that God created us and endowed us with hispersonal standards, giving us our sense of right and wrong?
Atheist – Then feel free to present some scientific, observable, testable proofof this God-construct of yours.
Tony – SHOW ME the chemical equation for love? I’m getting to the point by requesting specific examples as to the precise nature of the bridge between the brain’s electrochemistry and the mind as opposed to merely sidestepping the issue. Indeed, I see people putting faith into such mind/matter science fiction concepts asmuch as I put faith into Jesus Christ.
Not one scientifically based answer for my request yet. Atheism seems to be based on emotions as opposed to reasoning and faith.
What is wrong with God setting the example for us with respect to the rules he makes? Fortunately, we do not have a cigarette smoking God who commands us not to smoke.
Also, regarding your hypothetical assertion concerning God defining murder, theft, etc. as right, consider Job 34:10. The problems is that your not arguing with the Bible’s teachings as much as you are wrestling with your own undisciplined imagination.
God is also knocking at the door to your spiritual heart as Revelations3:20 suggests. Your problem, however, is that you are choosing to ignore his knocks.
I’m still waiting for ANYBODY to describe love and other powers of the mind in terms of precise chemical interactions. Atheists have no other scientific basis than the hypothetical existance “smart” electrons to explain the mind while denying the existance of God. Yet, no precise cause and effect has been identified with respect to the human psyche and electrochemical reactions. Indeed, atheists are actually putting their faith in chemicals as much as christians put their faith in Jesus.
The use of the word MAY tells me that the article is conjecture as muchas articles in the NYT, for example, are just somebody’s opinion.
Narration released here:
But WHERE did common sense come from? Indeed, please show us the formula for the common sense molecule. I’ll do that the very second you proof your gods exist.
Indeed, please show us the formula for the common sense molecule …
Either such molecules exist or God must exist.
Given no physical bridge in our brains that is the portal to our minds,God MUST exist.
George Washington may have written the following extracts:
It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe without the agency of a Supreme Being.
It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being.

— James K. Paulding,
A Life of Washington, 1836, Vol. II, p. 208.(Johnson, 263-264)
So, you are unable to address my assertion with scientific facts. At least christians are honest enough to say that their belief in God is based on faith in the evidence presented.
Thank you for a serious reply. However, my concern is that atheists MUST be able to prove that the functions of the human mind are rooted in chemical reactions or God MUST exist. But what I’m seeing is that atheists are actually putting faith into conjecture that this must be the case as much as christians put their faith in Jesus.
If you’ve got a scientifically sound explanation for how electrochemical activity in the brain directly reflects how our minds work then please volunteer it. Otherwise, I will presume that you don’t know anything about the subject. Christians have been upfront with that fact that we bridge what we understand about the mind with faith in God. Yes,christians have various interetations of the Bible but the fundamental christian tenet is simply that Jesus Christ is Lord. But atheists are evidently wrongly presuming that the relationship between atoms,molecules and the mind is an exact science, independent of God.

M. Clark
I see that you are essentially putting your faith into the fantasy that scientists in some remote laboratory MUST be in awe of their understanding of how the brain’s electrochemistry parallels our thoughts. And the fact that your imagination has made this mind/matter bridge in the brain obvious to the faceless scientists in your day dreams is good enough for you.
I have not been presented with any solidly scientific exlanations as to why our minds seem to be hovering between our ears.You are not seeking answers in good faith.
I just see a bunch of atheist struggling to explain how the human psyche works without referring to God.
Athiests could have shut me up any time with a solidly scientific explanation that addresses my concern.
Thank you for admitting that your belief system is nothing but a presumption.
And thank you for putting words in my mouth.
When someone sincerely invites Jesus into their spiritual heart (Revelation 3:20), Jesus enters their heart and starts rebuilding that person from the inside out. Consider Galatians 5:19-23 which shows the before and after effects of Jesus’ Spirit being in a person’s spiritual> heart Consider that the “true” Christian is a Christian only as long as you think> that he is. I think you need to read the bible concerning who can determine> who is a Christian.
I know the answer has been given in this thread. It harms the child! Is that too hard to understand? “It harms the child” is nothing more than a
politically correct, cop out reply that would only satisfy atheists. If I break some inanimate object, for example, then I’ve “harmed” the object but big deal. So why don’t I feel the same way with respect to harming a child as I would for the object?
Maybe you’re right. How about if I do us both a favor and brush up on God’s great “compassion” by again reading Matthew 23?
M. Clark
1 Corinthians 1:18-19 warns against relying solely on your reasoning with respect to trying to understand the Scriptures. Consider that Acts17:2 shows that it perfectly acceptable to apply reasoning to the Scriptures. But remember to also apply a little faith when you contemplate the faith-based teachings of the Bible. Doesn’t that make sense? So choose wisely.
Ah, the threat buried beneath the story.
Paranoia is a sign of a dysfunctional, dying spirit and an undisciplined imagination (Leviticus 26:36). No surprises here.
To address what I think the question is asking I’ve been asking for information referencing specific electron shells that must be occupied in order for love to be experienced, for example.
However, all I’ve been getting is that such information MUST be somewhere, except not here or there, mutterings reminiscent of Alice in Wonderland.
M. Clark
Because God gave us free will he instills values (tests us) in terms of choices he gives us. So it should be no surprise that values aren’t consistent when so many people simply make the wrong choices.
Clark: Romans 2:13-15 indicates that God has written his morals in our spiritual hearts. So maybe Confucius tapped into the morals that God had put into his heart anyway. Tom: You are making the erroneous assumption that the bible is correct.
You’re not even thinking. You don’t know if the Bible is right or wrong.
You hypocrite! You’ve got the pretense of scientific open mindedness coming out one end of your mouth but atheistic tunnel vision coming out the other side.
FYI, I’m not a YEC. I’m inclined to believe that the earth is older then the 6000 years that the Bible suggests for Adam and everybody who followed Adam. My one reservation about the estimated age of the ear this the reliability of dating methods. However, I still believe that the earth is probably way older than 6000 years. Indeed, Genesis arguably doesn’t address the age of the earth anyway.
What scientifically sound precepts are you basing your “knowledge” that God doesn’t exist on?
Says who? You? Is “just won’t cut it” a scientific term?
At least Christians admit that they believe in God by faith as opposed to the atheist belief that “smart electrons” in the brain make all our decisions for us.
Do you call everything that you don’t want to hear foolish?
Between the electrons changing energy level and the conscious perception of natural instincts there is an unexplained, gaping hole with respect to any obvious cause and effect relationship. It’s called a “nervous system”.
You’ve completely missed the point.
M. Clark
But ironically, atheists are putting as much faith into *making* this meaningless model of how the mind work as much as Christians put their faith into their belief that God is ultimately in control of these things Assigning scientific language to things you’ve just made up doesn’t make them attributable to scientists. No scientist has ever suggested that any behaviour is the solely the result of “energy levels” of individual atoms, and stating that they do just makes you look like an even bigger idiot and liar. Go away and get a clue He’s just another fundie with a fundie education, thinking he’s profound when he’s just profoundly ignorant.
Where did empathy come from? Explain it in chemical terms – if you can Empathy exists because it evolved as a successful survival strategy, just like the sonar of dolphins or the camouflage of stick insects. Think about whether our extremely successful and prolific species could exist as it does without empathy, and there you have your answer.
Clark: You evidently cannot explain it in chemical terms as I requested. Either chemical interactions to explain how the psych work MUST exist or God MUST exist.
The chemical interactions do exist. Just how and why is being studied as we speak.
You are putting faith into the possibility that such chemical interactions do exist in the absence of any substantial evidence for such interactions. Otherwise, I should have seen a URL to such chemical interactions long ago. And then atheists turn around and demand that Christians show them evidence of God.
I don’t know that there is anyone in this NG who can explain it to your satisfaction, which is understandable. To assume that “gawd” did it, if there is no chemical reaction, is an erroneous assumption and as absolutely nothing to support it, other than your mindless assertions. A quote from the “Discover” article says ” Morality is so instinctive that even primates make moral judgments. Chimps may be smart but they don’t read Kant”.
Christianity specifically calls people to use their brains. As Robert Griffiths (Heinemann prize in mathematical physics) stated:
“If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.” (16)http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html#senses

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